SPEAKER_02: 0:00

Hi, I'm Shelley Maurer. And I'm Cher Emmerich. Welcome to Life Lessons from Pickleball, where we engage with pickleball players from around the world about life on and off the court. Thanks for joining us. Welcome everyone to Life Lessons from Pickleball. It's so wonderful to have you here. And Shelly and I are a little bit over the moon because we have pickleball royalty with us today. Apostle Dr. Kwabena. Akupo. In addition to you being in the ministry in the Apostolic Church from 1999 to 2018 and authoring three books, you are also the president of the Ghana Pickleball Association and the president of the Confederation of the African pickleball, and you are the African representative on the board of the Global Pickleball Federation. You are one busy man, sir, and we so appreciate you joining us today.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07

Certainly, I'm glad to be part of this.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11

Yes, thank you so much. You know, I first found you when I saw that you were part of the first Pickleball Minds Industry Forum.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20

And that, which just happened. You'll have to tell us about that in a little bit. But I... started googling and then i found out when i found out you were part of the pickleball federation and the african pickleball federation all the work you're doing with pickleball in africa and i've had the privilege of traveling to africa and it's one of my favorite places i've ever been i have such a heart for it and i was just so so excited to talk to you today so thank you so much for joining us

SPEAKER_00: 1:51

You're welcome. And I'm very excited also to be part of this because pickleball has become a passion of mine. And everywhere I go, I like to, you know, evangelize pickleball, as I say now.

SPEAKER_02: 2:06

So how did you first get involved with pickleball?

SPEAKER_00: 2:10

So it was just after the pandemic when the lockdown was released and my wife and I would take walks and then she started taking tennis lessons. And our town, the tennis courts are in a very wooded area, so she didn't feel comfortable driving by herself. So I would drive her to the tennis court and then I would just take a walk in the woods. And as I was walking, I could hear a pop, pop, pop, pop. So, you know, they advise you to go away from the noise. I went toward the noise, you know, to find out what was going on. And I guess that is also perhaps my scientific background of trying to investigate things. And I came across this group of people who were playing this weird game. And everybody's... happy and shouting. So I went and stood there and watched them for a little bit. And then they were inviting me to come and play. But I, you know, I wasn't in the, I didn't come prepared to play any sport. And so the following day, same thing happened. This time I went, they invited me, somebody gave me a paddle. And I started playing, and the rest is history, as they say.

SPEAKER_02: 3:22

And where was this? Is this in Massachusetts?

SPEAKER_00: 3:24

Yes, this is in our town, Andover, Massachusetts. We have five pickleball courts just across from the tennis courts in the woods.

SPEAKER_02: 3:33

So just in the last few years?

SPEAKER_00: 3:35

Yes, in three years. I've been playing pickleball only three years. And I fell so much in love with it that everyone I ran into, I said, you've got to play pickleball. And I think that's what led me to doing stuff in Africa.

SPEAKER_02: 3:50

We're really interested in hearing how the African countries became a part of the Global Federation.

SPEAKER_00: 3:58

Okay. So I will have to start from Ghana. Please. Okay. So... After the pandemic, when travel was safe, my wife and I decided to go back to Ghana. We had retired from ministry in 2018, which means that we are not in active service. We don't run any churches. We do what I call freelance ministry, you know, invitations to preach here and there. And so we decided that we will spend our winters in Ghana. And so we're going to go to Ghana for a little bit. I said, I got to find a place to play pickleball. So I took paddles. I took four paddles. I said, if I find a tennis court, I can get three other people to join me. I'll teach them. Took four paddles, took balls, went to Ghana. Could not find a pickleball court. Could not find anywhere where they're playing pickleball. So I gathered some young people with me. And we found a tennis court at the University of Ghana that will allow us to play pickleball at the tennis court when they are not using it for tennis. And so we will go and wait while the tennis players are playing. And they had a backboard there for tennis practice. And so I was playing the pickleball ball against the backboard with some of the kids. And the tennis players, they were intrigued by what we were doing. And so some of them came and joined me and actually created this this game on the spell, the moment where two people will be hitting the ball against the backboard. And then you have to make sure you hit it above the line. If you hit it below, you've lost. Or if you hit it and somebody else can. So anyway, I got them interested. And then they asked me to talk to the director of sports for the university to see if they will allow us a space to play. And so I talked to the director of sports. And then he said, OK, next time I come, they'll give us some space. So we came back to the US. I shipped, I think, about four portable nets to Ghana with paddles and balls. And so the next time we went, this time we had a place where we could go and set up the net. And so we'll set up the net just before our first play. People are walking around. I'll go to them, come and play. They'll be watching, you know. And I was just dragging people and then some of them will come and play. One day we were playing and this guy was watching us. And then, you know, when I finished the game, he came to me and said, he's the student in charge of sports for the university. And he thinks this is an interesting game. They could form a club and he could bring a lot of student athletes. I said, hey, that's great. And so, you know, he started bringing student athletes. We started playing. And then another time there was another guy. You know, it's such a strange sport if you haven't seen it before that it just draws you in. It's incredible. Another guy came. I didn't even know that he was watching. So when I finished, I was taking a break. He approached me and he said that he asked the people there who brought this sport and they pointed to me. And he's from the National Sports Authority of Ghana. Oh, wow. And he's in charge of sports development. And he thinks that I should come and see them to see how we can develop this sport in Ghana.

SPEAKER_02: 7:46

Gosh, wow. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00: 7:50

Incredible. It's like all kinds of coincidences, you know. And from my ministry background, I say there are really no coincidences. It's more like the providence of God at work that puts people together. And so I went to see them and they told me what I must do, which is they want, Ghana has 16 regions. And they said to get recognized, I have to get the support introduced to 10 of the 16 regions. I have to form an association in order to make sure that we have some organization that can promote their sports in all the regions. I've quickly formed an association, contacted the International Federation, and then they connected me to another guy in Kenya. who is working pickleball in Kenya. So he and I started talking and I told him, let's gather a number of countries. And it turns out he knew some other countries. So we got in touch with this lady who is doing pickleball in Rwanda. And then, you know, we got in, another lady was connected to us from South Africa and it sort of started snowballing with, suddenly we find out, oh, there's pickleball in that country, pickleball in that country. So we got all of them into a chat, a chat group, WhatsApp chat group. And then I discovered that the African Games were going to be held in Ghana in March of 2024. Now this is 2023 now that I'm talking about. So I said to them, it would be a great thing if we could organize a pickleball tournament alongside the African Games, you know, get some visibility. I didn't even think we could get into the African Games. I just said, While they're doing their stuff, let's also go and do something and see if we can get publicity from it. And it turns out, I've never been in sports management. My thing is ministry and then before that, industry. It turns out that my proposal to them, some of whom have been in sports management, was like the ideal way to promote a sport. And so they all said, yeah, let's go do it. And so... The games were going to be in Ghana. So now I had the advantage point of being in Ghana. And now let's see if I can get, you know, pickleball into the games, not just on the sidelines, but let's get it into it. In the African Games, just for your listeners to know, is the Olympic Games of Africa. And it's held every four years. And so it's a multi-sport event and it's big, has a lot of publicity. And so they have what they call a local organizing committee. I'm a storyteller, so I may talk for long. If you want me to stop, I'll stop. We're loving this. Oh,

SPEAKER_02: 10:48

we're loving your

SPEAKER_00: 10:49

stories. Go, go. Okay. So then I contacted, I tried to contact the local organizing committee and nobody will return my calls. Nobody will respond to my emails. And so I kept wondering, how am I going to do this? So we have a, an adult daughter in Ghana who lives in Ghana and works, you know, is married, works in Ghana. So I call her up. She's called LaDonna. I say, LaDonna, I want to get into the African Games. Nobody's returning my calls. Do you have any contacts? And she said, the minister of sports in Ghana is a friend of mine.

UNKNOWN: 11:31

No way.

SPEAKER_00: 11:32

Another coincidence. Providence. That's so crazy. Oh, that works. It's incredible. And so I said, okay, is there any way you can talk to him about pickleball? Because she knows I'm passionate about pickleball. She said, yeah, I'll call him up. She called him up and told him, you know, my dad has brought a sport to Ghana and they want to play the sport as part of the African game. So can you get him in? She said, okay, yeah, I'll talk to the local organizing committee. But the way the structure is that the country that's organizing it the local organizing committee reports to the minister of sports. So he's in charge

SPEAKER_02: 12:12

of the

SPEAKER_00: 12:14

games. And so he called the chairman of the local organizing committee and said, there's a sport called pickleball. My friend wants it in, put it in. End of discussion. And so my daughter called that chairman. He responded and said, If it wasn't that you went through the minister of sports, I would not even take your call. But because he went through the minister of sports, I have to oblige. So ask your dad to call me and give his private number. I called him up. And then he said the same thing to me. And then he gave me the requirements that we must follow. And so quickly met with the other country. We didn't have any confederation at the time. I met with the other countries and I said, This is what has happened. We're in trouble. We have to, you know, it's good trouble. We have to fulfill these requirements, you know? And one of the requirements is that you have to have an organization at a continent level. So what do we do?

SPEAKER_02: 13:20

Quick, make one.

SPEAKER_00: 13:21

Quick, make one. That's it.

SPEAKER_02: 13:24

I love this.

SPEAKER_00: 13:26

And so we got together quickly and we started making an organization. You know, we used to be just a chat group. So for the first time, we called a meeting. They came on. I told them what we have to do, all the requirements. They agreed. I said, now we have to have offices because when you have an organization. Because anytime I call somebody about the African, they ask me, who are you? You know, this is Africa. We like titles, you know. If you don't have a certain title, they won't talk to you. They ask, who are you? And I said, oh. I'm a retired minister. We don't want to talk to you. And so the group got together and they said, okay, they decided that I should be president. I told them, okay, I'm very busy. I can do this, but only for two years. And in two years time, if you guys want me to continue, we can decide, you know. So they elected me as president. This other guy from Kenya that I had met before as secretary general, and another guy from Nigeria as the director of tournaments. And so then quickly using that title, I was able to call the African Union. They have a group that commissions confederations. So I called the gentleman, General Nasser, and he asked me, who are you? And I said, I'm president of the Confederation. And so then he decided to listen, you know. And then he told me what we must do. We must be registered with them. So we did it very quickly. And then they added us as what they call a demonstration sport to the African Games, meaning that any medals we win don't count and that we have to pay for all the expenses of organizing our tournament. that we are officially part of the African Games. So there we go.

SPEAKER_02: 15:21

Wow. You are absolutely royalty. Oh, my goodness. And here's this personal passion for this sport. And you create this rolling, expanding involvement with not just this little community of people that you happen to meet while you're there hitting the ball against the wall, And it evolves. It's almost like you had this, you kind of did everything in reverse instead of, okay, let's set this up and let's get our officers. And then we'll think in terms of what we'll plan this and plan that. No, we're going to be in the African games and now we're going to work backwards.

SPEAKER_00: 16:06

Yes. You know, it's entrepreneurship. Yes. And for me, that has been my life. When I was in industry, I was an entrepreneur. And then when I came to ministry, I was a church planter, which requires entrepreneurship. So when I went into this, when you're an entrepreneur, you don't need all the pieces to come together before you do something. You sort of do it as you go along. And so that kicked in.

SPEAKER_02: 16:38

So how did the African Games go? I can't wait now.

SPEAKER_00: 16:41

Yes. So now one of the requirements they gave us is that we must have seven countries. before we can be officially accepted. And so now we had a task to find seven countries where Ghana is there already, six countries that can travel and come to Ghana to join.

SPEAKER_01: 17:00

And

SPEAKER_00: 17:03

you're not being funded. The other countries are not being funded. So they have to find their way. And so that was the big challenge. And so each country had to do like a fundraiser, you know, to try and get tickets. Some of the countries like South Africa, when they selected their players, they selected players who are good, but who could pay their own way to Ghana. As you know, Africa is big. From South Africa to Ghana is like a six-hour flight. So it's expensive. Kenya to Ghana is... But eventually we ended up having eight countries join Ghana

SPEAKER_02: 17:41

So

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

we exceeded the minimum requirement that they had. And so we had the games from March 11 to 14 of this year, Monday to Thursday. And then, you know, during games, usually when a particular tournament is done, they give awards. Let's say singles is done, then they present awards. But what we did was we said, let's do a grand ceremony at the end. So let's not give awards as we go along. And so we played the tournament from Monday to Thursday. And then Friday morning, we did a grand celebration of pickleball, the tournament, the awards. We had the day before. In Africa, we like dancing. Anything happens, you dance. Any celebration, you dance. When you are sad, you dance. And so I told them, Let's organize the various players from the countries to do a dance together. So on Thursday night, we improvised and choreographed a dance that they would dance on Friday. So come Friday, as part of the closing ceremonies, all the players in their national colors and their flags and everything did a dance. I ought to send you the video. It was so

SPEAKER_02: 19:06

nice. We'd love to see that. Oh my gosh, everything has been done so quickly and spontaneously, and you just, really the flow, like you were saying, this providence, the flow of the universe, or whatever people might use as the term, that's really amazing how it all unfolded so beautifully. And I know now, how many are there, 17 countries in the

SPEAKER_00: 19:31

average? Now we have 19 countries.

SPEAKER_02: 19:33

19?

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

Wow. Yeah, so when we formed the Confederation, we formed the Confederation in August last year. We were 11 countries that came together to form it. And then eight countries joined Ghana in March. And right after the African Games, we shot up to 19. And part of the reason was that the way we set up the court, we set it up with nice tents surrounding it. And people were in their national colors and everything. So we drew attention from the African press. and also the African Games itself has press. So they came and they were featuring pickleball at the website of the local organizing committee who did not want to take my calls? And so that, you know, and then, so we're there playing pickleball and then suddenly we'll get a visitor from a country saying that we heard there's something, there's a pickleball tournament going on here and we've come to see what is it because we're interested. So then we'll tell them what it is. And so right after the games, we shot up to 19th.

SPEAKER_02: 20:46

Oh my goodness. You have started the pickleball craze in Africa.

SPEAKER_00: 20:51

No, the pickleball craziness. It's crazy. It's too nice. It's a craziness. This sport is so addictive that once you get addicted, you become crazy.

SPEAKER_02: 21:06

It's so true. Oh my goodness. So I lived for four years in Nairobi and worked in many of the countries there in Africa. My youngest child is actually adopted from Kenya and he's now 28 years old. And I am so happy to know that children there are now being exposed to this amazing game. And I'm wondering what stories you might have are now in these countries. I'm assuming they are not just in the cities playing, but also in villages. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_00: 21:45

Yes and no. In Kenya, we have it in Nairobi and in one village called Nanuki. So what we are trying to do now, we are really at the beginnings of pickleball in Africa. So many countries, when you go, they're playing it in the capital and perhaps in one place, and that's it. And so our goal is to spread it at the grassroots. So I call it pickleball for the people. And that's the mantra I've given to the Confederation. But what it means is that we have to have equipment that we can send. So my wife and I were able to buy some equipment and seed at some of the countries. And now through Pickleball Mines and also through the Global Federation, they've promised us nets and paddles and balls that we can send to some of the African countries. So we haven't gotten it at the grassroots the way I want, but that is my vision and that is what I'm pushing. One thing I discovered is that people who come to racket sports in Africa, they are usually like athletes and sports enthusiasts. And pickleball is not necessary for those people. It's for the ordinary person. It's for older people. It's for younger people, everybody. And that's what I'm trying to push, that philosophy. That's what I'm trying to push into pickleball in Africa.

UNKNOWN: 23:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 23:18

That's beautiful. In fact, Shelley, you came across the school. Yeah, I saw a website, Pickleball Schools, that you were a part of. Tell

SPEAKER_00: 23:28

us about that. Yes, yes. So there's a gentleman, Gary Schwartz, who is, his intent is to help us to facilitate pickleball at the grassroots. And his model is to go to the elementary schools and the middle schools and high schools. But that requires equipment. So what he's formulated is he calls it pickleball in a box, which is you have like a net and four paddles and balls. And he calls it pickleball in a net, in a box. And he's trying to get sponsors. So he wants to go to corporations in America and say, buy 10 boxes for, say, Uganda. So that is then, and then he will, by the way, his connection is with Zambia, just like your connection is with Kenya. And he's Canadian, but he's so much into pickleball in Africa that he's introducing this, but it hasn't kicked off yet, but that's the plan.

UNKNOWN: 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 24:43

Well, I hope that we can be instrumental in getting that word out. So before we end this conversation, I'd like you to share contact information on how, because I think people just in general would want to be supporting this endeavor as well. So we will certainly get information to our audience about how they can support this amazing, wonderful effort.

SPEAKER_00: 25:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 25:07

Yes, yes. And I think, well, because on the name of our podcast, Life Lessons from Pickleball, you know, can you talk to us about some life lessons that you've learned since you've been involved with pickleball and that you see passing on to people, you know, why really people would want to invest in pickleball boxes to send to Africa? You know, what's the importance of pickleball?

SPEAKER_00: 25:30

Okay. So let me start from my own personal story. You know, I, in ministry, you're very busy. Even though I'm retired, I'm, you know, doing special project for the church. And so when I started playing pickleball, I described it as a healthy distraction, healthy distraction. So for ministry, I go and play pickleball and the exercise that I get is, physically and mentally. Because as you know, the game is very strategic and very physical, but not too physical for an older person like me to play. And so the healthy part of it is very important. And so as part of that, even in Ghana, I've been trying to get some of the ministers to get into pickleball as a healthy distraction. Second thing is pickleball it's easy enough for young people to play. If you take tennis, you know, for a young person, I'm talking about somebody in like elementary school, you know, their racket is a little bit unwieldy. But pickleball is easier for them. And so it's easier to introduce it to young people. And then that provides, once again, a healthy distraction from any other activity. untoward things that they might do.

SPEAKER_01: 26:57

So

SPEAKER_00: 26:59

the theme of healthy distraction for me runs through. And you come to people in college who are studying hard. And typically in college in Africa, the people who are involved in sports are athletes. For them, there's no issue. They are not my target. My target is all the other kids who are not athletes and therefore are sedentary and are just studying. I want them to have a healthy distraction from their studies by playing pickleball because anybody, it doesn't matter who you are, anybody can play pickleball. That's my discovery. So when we talk about life lessons, this is where I'm seeing that pickleball will have an impact in Africa and in life in general.

SPEAKER_02: 27:48

In fact, one of our guests is playing in a wheelchair. So when you say anyone can play, it really does just provide opportunity for nearly every single human being. Yes, yes. And all the ages. Yes. When you were over there playing and introducing it initially, and then there... people came? Were they the kids who came and started playing with you against the wall, or were they adults, or who was intrigued?

SPEAKER_00: 28:19

They were university students, undergraduate university students, and a few graduate students. So they were between the ages of 18 to about 25. But since then, because one of the things that we did as part of the African Games is that I went around the various media houses, radio and TV, promoting pickleball for the tournament, for the African Games. In fact, we promoted pickleball more than the other sports because the other sports, they just assumed that they have. And in one of the appearances, I took the entire pickleball Ghana team, you know, 10 players, two coaches, there were 12 people. We went to a television station and they interviewed all of us as part of the promotion. And so since then, we've been getting some older people come to the courts at the University of Ghana to play. In Ghana, they also have things called Keep Fit Club. A Keep Fit Club is like a group of people get together and exercise, you know, and they are usually older people. So we have been able to successfully introduce in one of the towns to a cafe club. So when they go to exercise, they do the exercises, and then they will start playing pickleball as well. So I'm hoping that we will reach. My concern right now is that I am in Ghana. I'm reaching the young people, but I want to reach the older people.

SPEAKER_02: 29:51

Each

SPEAKER_00: 29:53

time I tell an older person that I know, They laugh at me because older people don't play sports in Africa, you know. But they need to. They need to. They need to. That's why I am really pushing it because, you know, there are certain diseases that are common in Africa. High blood pressure, for example, is very common. And it takes people at an early age. And so... I believe that if people will start playing pickleball, because you don't need to be an athlete, you know, that will help with part of that problem. But it's so ingrained in people like older people don't play sports or When you're a professional, like you're an engineer, a doctor, you don't play sports. And so I have to break that thing. I have to find a way to break that thing in Ghana.

SPEAKER_02: 30:51

Well, you're the perfect example of having been an entrepreneur, engineer, and then now in the ministry and now retired. And you are able to demonstrate, yeah, every level of life. Is it too much to say that pickleball can save our lives?

UNKNOWN: 31:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 31:10

I think pickleball can save our lives here on earth.

SPEAKER_02: 31:15

I do too.

SPEAKER_00: 31:17

And the reason is that because it's easy. You know, tennis, you can't play, except for very few people, you can't play tennis from when you're young to when you're in your 80s and 90s. But you can do pickleball. You sure

SPEAKER_02: 31:31

can.

SPEAKER_00: 31:33

You can play soccer. I used to play soccer. In my 30s, I was getting injuries. I had to stop playing soccer. You can play some of these fun sports that young people have. They cannot play when they are older. You can play pickleball throughout life. And so, yes, we can make the statement that pickleball can save your life here on earth. As a spiritual person, I would say you need God for eternity.

SPEAKER_02: 32:05

That's so beautiful. Oh, my goodness. I actually have a zillion more questions, but we're running out of time. I do want to make sure that we let... our audience know how we can be supportive of you, Dr. Okupo. Tell us how to find you and support what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 32:26

Okay. So what we need most is equipment, like portable nets, paddles, and balls. For example, take balls. Ghana, we... there was a group in Sierra Leone that wanted to play pickleball. They didn't have anything. We sent them nets, paddles, and balls. But within three months, all the balls were broken. Oh, yeah. So we need those. Then one thing I noticed in Ghana when I was playing with the young kids is that some of them didn't have proper shoes.

SPEAKER_02: 33:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 33:06

And so, you know, shoes that... that you may think are not good for you will be good for them. So used tennis shoes will be something. And paddles also, they don't have to be new. It can be paddles that you have used and now you've advanced to something else. Use paddles. Balls, we need new balls. And portable nets. Let's say during the pandemic, you bought a portable net for your home and you're using it. Now you don't need it anymore. We could use it. You can reach us, you know, our website, Confederation of African Pickleball. Our website is cafricapickleball. C, as in Charlie, africapickleball.com. That is our website. And on Facebook, you can just search for Confederation of African Pickleball. And you can find us on Facebook. Also, For those who are very comfortable with WhatsApp, I will give out the WhatsApp number for our Secretary General. He's called Captain Collins. Captain Collins. And his number is plus 254-718-041037. And if you reach him by WhatsApp, you can send a message. And then we can arrange... for any pickups. For example, one company I run into at Pickleball Mines has decided to send us 25 portable nets. So they are going to ship it to my house here in the US, and then we will ship it from here to Africa.

SPEAKER_02: 34:57

Well, Shelley's and my dream is that we actually deliver equipment to Ghana and Kenya and all the other countries. That would be

SPEAKER_00: 35:09

wonderful. And then you have to come to one of those countries.

SPEAKER_02: 35:12

Absolutely. And play pickleball. You haven't told us how many times a week do you play pickleball?

SPEAKER_00: 35:22

I play three times a week. I've played today already. I usually try to do Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I need one day in between to recover.

SPEAKER_02: 35:36

Oh, well, Kwabena, thank you so much for everything that you have been doing in such a short period of time. I mean, your work in the ministry, of course, has been transformational for years. And now you are... Evangelist for Pickleball. And you have brought together Africa, you've brought Africa together around Pickleball. Bless your heart for doing that. And we are just thrilled to know about this and to have met you. And we support you 1000%.

SPEAKER_00: 36:11

Thank you very much. I appreciate you contacting me and getting me into this. But let me say very quickly, one program that we introduced, we call it Pickleball Missionary Program. And what we are planning to do is that we'll take one of our players in one of the countries, give them a net paddles and balls, and then we'll send them to another country that doesn't have pickleball at all, based on a contact we would have received from there. They will go there, teach them, leave their equipment there and come back. Africa has 54 countries. We're in 19. We need to get to 54 countries. And furthermore, I'm very glad that you are participating. This means that you are partners with us at the Confederation. So we thank you for your life and may God bless you for this work that you are doing.

SPEAKER_02: 37:04

Thank you. Thank you. Oh my goodness. And thank you for being our guest today. And we will continue to follow and be in touch with you and all of your adventures. And we do want to thank everyone who's been listening and watching. We know that you are as inspired as we are. And if you can be helpful in expanding Pickleball throughout Africa, what a gift that is for every age group and everyone who is looking for some way to be fully themselves with health and community and joy. So thank you all. And we look forward to our next conversation next week. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_00: 37:45

Bye bye. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 37:47

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