SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Hi, I'm Shelley Maurer. And I'm Cher Emmerich. Welcome to Life Lessons from Pickleball, where we engage with pickleball players from around the world about life on and off the court. Thanks for joining us. Welcome, everyone, to Life Lessons from Pickleball. It is so great to have you here. And Shelly and I are super delighted to welcome Dr. Cameron Smith, a PhD, and Dori West. Cameron, you are a sports psychologist, also known as the Dink Shrink.

UNKNOWN: 0:36

Hello.

SPEAKER_00: 0:36

And Dori, you are a writer, coach, and advocate for Pickleball. And I just found out recently that you were a teacher in your past and a teacher of teachers. And now I know why you're such a fantastic coach. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 0:53

And both of you are a part of the Dear Pickleball team, which is adorable on Instagram. And you're co-writing a book. So, oh my gosh, we have so much to talk about. But before we get into all of that, we want to hear how did each of you even get involved in pickleball in the first place?

SPEAKER_00: 1:13

I'll go first. I used to be a tennis player and eventually after a number of injuries that prevented me from being competitive and pursuing the sport to the level that I wanted to pursue it, I switched over to pickleball about five years ago and I've really never looked back. I've had so much fun, made so many friends and had a lot of really great competitive experiences and managed to keep my body in check relative to how it felt when I played tennis. I've healed a great deal since then. I I no longer have a limp, for example.

SPEAKER_01: 1:53

It's

SPEAKER_00: 1:54

good news. I'm very happy to have switched to the pickleball.

SPEAKER_02: 1:59

My story, you know, I have been practicing as a clinical psychologist off and on for 40 years. And so I've really enjoyed the whole application of sports psychology to people and to sports. I've worked with Olympic athletes, professional teams across multiple sports. As an athlete myself, I'm not very talented physically, but I just love playing sports. I just love it because it's a chance for me to use all that stuff that I use with my clients. What happened was I moved to a location that had a thriving pickleball club that Dory was really running. for us in our community. And so I thought, I'll go find out about it. And so I start going to the classes that Dori put together. And I just, it was like when I met my wife. It, boom, love at first sight, that was it. I was sold. I just loved it. And going through the classes that Dori taught, I've started thinking about how wonderful of an opportunity it is to apply sports psychology to a sport, a game that has so many growth opportunities for us. I personally have gotten, I'm a better person now than I was. I'm happier. I'm friendlier. I handle frustration better. It's really a great sport to play. to embrace. So Dori and I started talking, and there we go. We said, let's write a book. Let's start sharing this joy we have of the game with others.

SPEAKER_00: 3:40

Because I think we feel, both Cameron and I believe, that pickleball is a great sport, but there's so much more to pickleball, as Cameron was describing. And to be a part of making people's lives better through pickleball was very appealing to us. And we felt that we had a message, maybe even a unique message to share with people. And that's what started us along the path of writing a book and then starting a company. How did you get into coaching initially then? So I had been in education for a large part of my life. And in the last 20 years of my career, I worked with adults. And in addition, I had kind of a little side gig where I was an assistant coach for tennis. So I was always kind of inclined towards sports and inclined towards coaching, coaching of adults. In my case, it was math and science and English language arts for a while. Nice. And then it became... you know sport oriented completely when I got my certifications and started working as a director of a of a large pickleball facility in Washington state and so from there I started you know working with clients and coaching clinics and running large open play scenarios and I think you know once you get your training there are a lot of people that want to learn pickleball. So there's a steady stream of clients that I work with. And as Cameron mentioned, I also love to organize things. So I organize a lot of group play and clinics here in our community, which is a large burgeoning, I would say, pickleball community here in Redmond, Washington.

SPEAKER_01: 5:41

So what was the difference for you, apart from it saved your body from being injured and all, but what was the difference for you between the other sports and pickleball that makes pickleball so endearing?

SPEAKER_00: 5:54

Well, yes, that's a really good question, the endearing part of it. Tennis is more elite. Pickleball is more for the every person category. Everybody can play pickleball. Now, not everybody can play pickleball well, and I don't mean in any way to insult the elite pickleball athletes. Sure. I don't mean to insult them at all. And in fact, there's a high level of athleticism when you're looking at, you know, the PPA and you're watching Selkirk sports and watching these people play. These guys are women and men are incredible athletes.

SPEAKER_02: 6:30

The thing also to add on is that pickleball is easy to learn, right? And that initial barrier is low. But the thing that just caught me, it's still catching me every day, is that people are getting better every day. Every day they're getting better. That's so amazing. I think pickleball is kind of unique in that way to where you can see your improvement over time. And, you know, a lot of us struggle to find places where we're improving in our lives. To find something that we're just talking the physical aspect, the physical aspect of pickleball. You just keep getting you can keep getting better. And then there's the social aspect. The community. You really feel like you're a part of something when you're playing pickleball. In tennis, you know, you're out there. In other games, you're out there. But I tell you, the pickleball, we want to see that continue. That kind of camaraderie and the fellowship that comes. You know, the whole post-COVID thing. This is where we get together and talk. And we enjoy each other so much. And the support, that's the third thing. So you're getting better.

UNKNOWN: 7:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 7:41

You've got a community. And then there's this community of support that's the raw, raw stuff that's somehow embedded. I don't know. Is it in the battles, Dori? I don't

SPEAKER_03: 7:50

know.

SPEAKER_02: 7:52

But it seems to come everywhere. People seem to want to help each other when they've got a pickleball paddle in their hand.

SPEAKER_00: 8:00

I think that, you know, the really important point, and I want to make sure that... We say this is that the low barrier to entry, it doesn't mean that you're going to elevate yourself to a very high level anytime soon. However, there is a path for a lot of people. Everybody, in fact, will get incrementally better. And sports psychology and coaching plays a really big role. That's what my question is, Cameron, because you've worked with so many elite athletes. So how is it different when you're talking to elite athletes or you're talking to us average athletes? pickleball players

SPEAKER_02: 8:37

well in general the elite athlete has one goal in mind and that's it and that's to win to win in their sport and to be the the goat the greatest of all time that in in elite sports psychology it's all about moving people along to take on that goal okay and So what about if you don't see your family for six months? Not important. So what if you spend two or three hours in the physical therapy training room? Just get over it, get tough and keep fighting. Play through pain. There are so many things that it sounds terrible. The way we we the way sports psychologists help elite athletes often is by shutting down the rest of their world so that they can focus exclusively on their sport.

SPEAKER_01: 9:32

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_02: 9:33

Wow. It's the opposite. It's more like. Learning how to manage your attention on the pickleball court helps you learn how to manage your attention at your job, in your relationship, when you're by yourself. You get much more opportunity for growth and generalize. So that's why we love the combination because it's not just about how you hit the ball. It's about how you add the... the mindset that you have, the ability to calm yourself down, to be into the present, to enjoy your successes, to manage frustration. There's a lot of frustration in pickleball. Managing that is such an incredible skill to have in the rest of our lives. People tick us off all the time. They don't meet our expectations and we let ourselves down all the time. But you can do that on the pickleball court and learn how to take good care of yourself. So mental health I see such mental health growth among the players that we work with. They're just happier.

SPEAKER_00: 10:47

And I think, too, on the pickleball court, in the absence of sports psychology, can be problematic because if you don't have any experience with managing your moods, managing your emotions, you can get on the pickleball court and walk off feeling really badly about yourself. You can walk off having a lot of negative self-talk appear. And we hear a lot of you know people are very hard on themselves and particularly I would say where we live um we yeah we just went

SPEAKER_02: 11:21

through a couple of experiences

SPEAKER_00: 11:22

we live uh And I'm just speaking at large, you know, we're in the background of, in the backyard of Microsoft, for example, and the people who live here are very high performing individuals. They live in Redmond, Washington, where we live and they're very, very tough on themselves. And I think that, you know, part of my job as a coach is to help them love themselves a little bit more and understand and have compassion for themselves as they learn and grow. And if they can focus on the small things.

SPEAKER_02: 11:53

Dory sounds like a great psychologist,

SPEAKER_01: 11:56

doesn't she? He is a great psychologist.

SPEAKER_02: 11:59

That's what Dear Pickleball is about. You called it a love letter to Pickleball. You know, it's where you can, Dear Pickleball, this happened to me today. What's going on? And so we can talk about it through different lenses that we have to help people enjoy their lives more. And that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01: 12:19

What are some of the techniques you use, Cameron, when you're working as a psychologist with people who are, now you're exclusively working with pickleball players, is that correct?

SPEAKER_02: 12:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 12:30

Yeah. So what are some of the techniques that maybe our audience could learn?

SPEAKER_02: 12:35

Sure. So they tend to be similar to other sports. I'll just say that first, right? And so one of the big areas, and I'll try to be brief because this is where I can go on and on, all right? Managing your attention is one of the main things we help people learn to do. So your attention can either be very wide and disperse, in which case you're paying attention to everything around you, or you can learn how to take your attention into a very narrow focus. And to play well, you need to be able to move your attention around quite successfully. It goes wide, it goes slow. That's number one, attention control. The level of relaxation that happens on the court is another huge area that we can help people with. Allowing your muscle memory to do its job, when you've practiced well and you know how to do things, the chances are that you're going to get in the way. It's not your opponent that's going to get in the way. It's your own head that's going to get in the way. So there's a group of things we call self-talk to try to help people see what are they saying to themselves that's interfering with letting their muscle memory come through and letting their training work for them. So you've got those two. Another big area that we work on is the way that people deal with frustration, which is the opposite side of self-confidence. So in sports psychology, self-confidence is not something you either possess or don't possess. It's going up, it's going down, it's going up, it's going down. techniques that people can use to do that. I know I've gone on and on. There's a few more, but they do work. They really do work. And they're not unlike coaching skills is that they... you can't just do it once and have it work. You can't just hit a serve, get top spin the first time you hit it. You can learn how to do it and you can get it once, but in order to get it right, you do need to practice. So we spend a lot of time when we talk to the people about balancing the drilling. And sports psychology can be drilled just like skills can be drilled. When you put those two together, And you're doing a little, you're paying attention to your mindset and your attitude and your relationships on the court. Then you're free to think about strategy. You're free to think, to practice those shots.

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

It's magical. It's a magical combination, I think. And people will see results absolutely by combining the two. I'm kind of very primitive in my mental game. I just... say ball to myself i say ball when i'm really stressed and i know that i know that's really lame and not very it's not going to sell a lot of books you know but i will say that that that is something that i have to be so simplistic because when i'm nervous in a competition um you know, it's the reptilian brain that kicks in. And somehow or another, when I say ball, it means more than just ball to me. It just means energy. get to the basic because there's you know i do have to think about a few more things besides ball but it helps me and and i think that's one of the things that you know i came to after being really reflective and going through some of these steps that cameron had uh you know has discussed with me um and as i'm learning more about sports psychology through our we have what i would call great conversations uh that take place prior to my doing uh the right of our book and I've learned so much just through our conversations

SPEAKER_02: 16:42

and you practice Dory

SPEAKER_00: 16:43

yeah and I do

SPEAKER_02: 16:44

she practices she puts in the time and so you know everybody might have a different approach to ball, okay?

SPEAKER_03: 16:54

There's

SPEAKER_02: 16:56

no exact recipe on what you say to yourself. Everybody's a little bit different, but what isn't different is the approach, right? To be able to have awareness that, uh-oh, I am wired up what do i i i need to i need to do something okay and then having practiced what you needed to do multiple times a lot of deep breathing relaxation talking you've associated all that to one word ball

SPEAKER_03: 17:26

yeah well it's kind of it's a good distraction

SPEAKER_02: 17:28

right Brings all that mental memory back, just like muscle memory. Mental memory comes back with a certain cue. And that's what she's using effectively is a cue technique for herself.

SPEAKER_00: 17:41

Yeah, I think so. I think that's a good one, too, because I find out what happens with me is I can be playing and doing well. And all of a sudden I'll realize I'm going to win this game or I want to win this game. And then that's when I start missing shots. And, you know, if I could just say ball. I love it. Right. We get my mind. Don't think about winning. Don't think about how you want to win. Just ball. It's so, it's so, it does work for me.

SPEAKER_02: 18:12

Yeah. Rituals. He was rituals too. I see, you know, I use a three, three bounce. I bounce a ball three times every time before I serve. And that just brings me into my zone.

SPEAKER_01: 18:24

I tap the ball twice on my paddle before I

SPEAKER_02: 18:28

start. What do you do, Shelly?

SPEAKER_01: 18:30

I

SPEAKER_00: 18:31

just stand in silence. I just stand still. So I'm just breathing. I just take a breath and then go.

SPEAKER_02: 18:41

So a great sports psychologist doesn't say, well, the way to do this is this. What they say is, well, tell me what you've done in the past that's worked for you. Oh, you're more of a visualization breather. You've got, you know, you need to have a physical activity in what you do. Dory just likes balls.

SPEAKER_00: 19:00

I do. I do. Yeah. I like any kind of, yeah, throwing balls, whatever.

SPEAKER_02: 19:08

It's fun. And that's the other thing. It's not hard. It's not childhood trauma. It's all about using your thinking to change a little bit of brain chemistry. We know that those two things are related. You know, we talked about pickleball balls. is addictive. That's because it is. When you're doing this stuff, you're producing dopamines and other neurotransmitters that feel really good. And you want to go back and do that again. And luckily, we know a lot about this stuff now. And so we just use these simple things and just try to apply them with a little bit of human energy. Humanness and humor and appreciation of the people that we're working with. It's just really fun.

SPEAKER_01: 19:57

And Dory, as a coach, I imagine you're doing the same thing that Cameron's saying. You kind of figure out what is their strength. Are they a feeler? Are they a thinker? Are they just a physical go for it? Do you use those?

SPEAKER_00: 20:12

Yes, definitely. When you're a coach, it's very interpersonal. At least that's how I roll when I'm coaching. I don't do a one-size-fits-all just like Cameron is saying. I feel like I am the most effective when I coach in two separate ways. One is setting up my clients for independent drilling, making sure that they have a drilling routine when they don't see me because they only see me maybe one hour or two hours a week and I want them to sustain the practice so setting them up for a good drilling routine is critical but the other is I'm an observer I'm a very keen observer of what they are specifically doing on the court and I sometimes I hope this doesn't come off as braggy but it's just like I feel like I have been doing given a gift or something that I can look at a player and see one thing that they're doing, that if they fix that one thing, their game is going to improve. Wow. It's just maybe because I've seen so many, I watched so many pickleball players. Maybe it's not a gift. Maybe it's a home skill. That's kind of just through osmosis I've developed, but I can see stuff. that I think other people may not be aware of for themselves or in their partners. And they, oftentimes people will ask me to just watch them play and take notes. And then I give them the notes and we talk through it and they go, oh, I didn't know I was doing that. Or, oh, I'm going to try that. Shelly, I don't know if that's been your experience, but. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I don't think it's braggy at all. I really think I've experienced when I said you're an incredible coach is when there's been six women and you're giving us each very unique tips. Thank you so much. You know, I want to tell you that for me, it's super fun. I really enjoy that. It's almost like I do a lot of puzzles and like New York Times, you know, connections or, you know, those kinds of things. You know, it's that feeling that when you finally go, oh, I get what this pattern is. I get what the word is. There's a satisfaction I feel there. from doing it. I don't know. It's weird.

SPEAKER_02: 23:01

I tell you, I've seen it in action. My life plays pickleball and we've been, I've been, totally unsuccessful in coaching her, which of course, one of the things that I kept observing was she was lunging toward balls toward the net. And I kept saying, you're lunging. And, and, and I was getting over it. Dory watched her for a while and said, you need to get your butt down.

SPEAKER_01: 23:28

Funny. Problem solved.

SPEAKER_02: 23:31

She was able to capture, get that into her head and, it just stopped everything. Once she put her butt down, she was played so much better. And so it's like seeing that, you know, that critical path, what's the fundamental thing. And psychologists do that too. They try to find a fundamental thing where you want power, you know, power for your buck, right? The most way you can improve. And Dory is really, really good at seeing how people change. I hope

SPEAKER_00: 24:04

I don't lose that ability.

SPEAKER_01: 24:08

So I actually want to drill into that one because that's something I do. I lunge. So what does that mean? Put your butt down.

SPEAKER_00: 24:15

Oh, well, okay. So I honestly don't remember telling Rebecca that, but I believe him. He remembers things and he's probably right. But the general sense in any sport is if you lunge, you lose. lunging and losing go together. So you want to be very balanced. You want to sit in a chair. So probably what I was thinking is you need to put your butt in a seated position more or less athletic position and stay balanced because the lunging that we do we want to move our feet to where we want to go we don't want to move our upper body necessarily but you know look let's be honest you you're in a competitive situation you're going to do some lunging right I mean it's just going to happen but the more you lunge the more likely it is that you're going to get off balance and the greats the greats pickleball players, they probably lunge all over the court. You know, I don't know, but I mean, it seems to me they do some lunging, but, but in general. our levels, you know, we want to really try to stay very, very balanced because we may not all be super athletically gifted. So lunging is just one thing that throws us off balance. And the more we can sit back, like we're sitting in a chair when we're playing pickleball. Now that's not true in every case around the court, but in this particular case, it was probably lunging at the net and causing the ball to go into the net. into the net, for example, lunging at the kitchen line and having the ball go in the net. That's a classic one.

SPEAKER_01: 25:55

Classic and very familiar to me.

SPEAKER_00: 26:00

You know, when your body is lunging, that's why Mr. and I'm lunging instead of staying balanced and sitting in my chair and being compact because lunging also involves balance. It's the opposite of compact. You're stretching instead of staying compact.

SPEAKER_01: 26:18

That's good.

SPEAKER_02: 26:19

Rebecca was able to visualize that very quickly, what that looked like and feels like. That's the sports psychology. So Dory hit the exact right skill or the physical part of it. And why did it work so well? Because Rebecca believed it. She could see, wow, you know, you're right. If I'm When I get my butt down, I'm going to be stable. And she believes it. And, you know, what we believe becomes what happens. It's true.

SPEAKER_00: 26:52

Yeah. And nobody really likes to listen to their spouse, honestly. Let's be honest. Let's be honest.

SPEAKER_02: 27:01

Although when I tell her to get her butt down now, she kind of likes

SPEAKER_01: 27:08

that. Yeah. on and off the court.

SPEAKER_02: 27:15

Dora's a great coach because she does understand the basics of sports psychology. You know, and that's made it that, you know, we think coaches get a lot out of what we're doing as well as players because it's the combination of those two things and having, you know, somebody that wants to get better. You put somebody that wants to get better, a great coach and a great sports psychologist together and you're going to you're gonna make something pretty good.

SPEAKER_01: 27:43

Perfect combo. So you are doing Dear Pickleball and you have a book. So we want to hear about each of those, right?

SPEAKER_00: 27:51

Yeah. Okay. So Dear Pickleball is just the name of the company. And we decided to call it Your Pickleball because people ask us a lot of questions and sometimes they do come in the form of a letter. And we just also enjoyed the idea that the endearing aspect of pickleball, that it's dear to us. We believe pickleball is going to Perhaps save the world, save the universe. We don't know. We hope so. And we want to contribute to that and advocate for that as much as possible. We see it in real time all the time, how, you know, in our interactions with people that a lot of people will tell you that pickleball saved their marriage or

SPEAKER_03: 28:35

pickleball.

SPEAKER_00: 28:36

help them find love or pickleball, help them stop drinking or help them from stop their depression. I mean, it really is quite phenomenal. So we were taken by that. We thought, well, what if we could be better advocates? What if we could provide content and curate content that would help people see the light of pickleball? I don't mean to sound like I'm proselytizing or that it's starting a religion or anything, but we really do feel pretty powerful. that pickleball will lead to something bigger than pickleball itself. And so that's the nature of the company. And the company is really not highly developed. We're new at this. We have an Instagram page where we curate content and we start, we're starting to develop Cameron and his, his sports psychology background. So we in small soundbites, you know, over time to develop interests. And then the book is really just a practical handbook for everybody who's not a pro. And in our secret, it's like below pro and down. Our secret wish is that maybe a pro will pick up the book and go, hey, there's some good stuff in here. Now, the book, Dear Pickleball, is not exclusively about how to play pickleball. It's how to be... an effective pickleball player, which is different than just having the skills, but skills is a part of it. So in our skills section, you'll be able to use a QR code and access YouTube videos or Instagram videos to see exactly how to drill effectively. So I'm, I'm very excited about that. And I think the filming of that is taking place in the next week or two.

SPEAKER_02: 30:24

You know, Dory works hard on the writing. I'm working on identifying publishers that can help us that are in our domain that can be part of our team really. And so it's, it takes time

SPEAKER_01: 30:39

and

SPEAKER_02: 30:41

it won't, Maybe we won't hit it on the very first day, but we don't give up.

SPEAKER_01: 30:49

Maybe that's one of the life lessons. So speaking of life lessons, and maybe you have them in your book or you got them just from your personal experience and professional experience, what are a couple of the life lessons that you've either learned on the court, taken into life, or you've learned in life and you're taking it on the court?

SPEAKER_02: 31:08

For me, it's to be patient with myself

SPEAKER_01: 31:10

and others.

SPEAKER_02: 31:11

You know, I as a person tend to be a bit of a driver. I tend to expect a lot out of myself and others and I want things to happen fast. And so that's a thing, you know, and Pickleball has really helped me get away from my own individual contributor drive and become part of something. So that's been the best thing for me is I'm out of Cameron being a good player, Cameron being a great psychologist. No, it's Cameron being a part of something fun that he really likes with people that I really like. That's been the best thing. I'm really having fun.

SPEAKER_00: 31:56

That's joy. That's the most important thing. A life lesson for me is more about what I am capable of doing and what others are capable. It's more about potential. You often think about young children having potential well guess what 80 year olds have potential and people from all walks of life have potential and they it's just a matter of finding and in my particular lens it's through pickleball but just the idea or the concept there's so much out there for everyone to take part of and participate in and pursue um regardless of age or physical ability I think you guys are the ones that told me that you met a pickleball player who plays wheelchair pickleball. I mean, the kinds of things that access the, you know, crossing gender and crossing race and economic situations. There's great things happening in Seattle, diversity initiatives that are getting kids who would otherwise never have get to play pickleball, playing pickleball. So there's, I just really love thinking about the potential in each and every one of us and pickleball sort of manifests that it, it encourages that it provides a pathway to in a, in a very kind of natural, organic way to kind of test yourself and push yourself out, put yourself out there. So that's a life lesson for me.

SPEAKER_01: 33:38

Beautiful. And many more life lessons to come when your book is published. And we want to hear about that. And we'll definitely get the word out and probably have you back on to talk more about your book. I'd

SPEAKER_02: 33:50

love to stay in contact with you. You guys are great interviewers.

SPEAKER_00: 33:54

Yeah, really good job. Really good job.

SPEAKER_01: 33:56

You two are an incredible combo. Coach, psychologist, just your personalities, your expertise. Shelly and I were just so delighted to be able to chat with you today. And Shelly already knew what a great coach you were, Dori. And we're just thrilled to have you both here. And we know our audience has already taken away lots of good nuggets of wisdom. And we thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00: 34:22

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 34:24

Bye. And bye-bye everybody. We're so glad you joined us and we're looking forward to our conversation next week. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00: 34:33

If you love our podcast, we'd be so grateful if you'd take a few seconds to follow or subscribe to Life Lessons from Pickleball. This ensures you'll never miss an episode and helps us continue these wonderful conversations.

SPEAKER_01: 34:47

On Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen, go to the show page and tap the follow button in the top right corner. And on YouTube, click the subscribe button under any of the episodes. Thanks so much. Hope to see you on the court.

UNKNOWN: 35:03

you