Life Lessons From Pickleball

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi, I'm Shelly Maurer. And I'm Cher Emmerich. Welcome to Life Lessons from Pickleball, where we engage with pickleball players from around the world about life on and off the court. Thanks for joining us. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Life Lessons from Pickleball. We are super excited to have as our guest today, Max Mantho, a pro pickleball player. Max, you are an amazing athlete. You captained your high school state champion basketball team, qualified for the collegiate nationals in table tennis and poker, and you played tennis at the University of Washington.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

And you served in the Peace Corps in Indonesia. You speak four languages and you received your master's degree in anthropology from Illinois State University.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yeah, I've done some things.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

You've done a few things.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah, a few things. And now you're a professional pickleball player from Tacoma for the SoCal Heart

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Apes. Yes, yeah, go Heart Apes. Go Heart Apes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, MLP. And you've written a book called A Pickleball Gossiple. But before we get into pickleball, Tell us about the Peace Corps. I'm really interested to hear about your Peace Corps experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Oh, wow. It was life-changing, as I think most people probably experience in the Peace Corps. I was in Indonesia. I lived in a small village with a wonderful family for over two years. I was surrounded by rice fields. I had about 100 geckos on my wall. Eating

SPEAKER_02 1:59

all the mosquitoes.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

So many mosquitoes, yeah. I actually killed 37 in one dinner. I tested that out once. And then I taught English at a local high school. I had about 800 students. Yeah, they gave me every student in school. Yeah. And I also coached basketball. We did mural painting. I had a wonderful time and then came back. And actually, that's when I met or that's when pickleball was introduced to me. I was like one of the first days back and I was watching a Seattle Seahawks game. And then on on a commercial break, they had the pickleball central commercial, which was wild because before I left like three years earlier, it wasn't, it wasn't a thing, um, in my mind, I'm sure. No, it definitely existed, but, um, not to be on like a, a big advertisement like that. Um, and so then that was an indicator that things had changed when I was gone. And then I got a call from my friend, like a few days later, like, Hey, let's go play. So, um, so yeah, I transitioned right, right out of, uh, of, uh, Peace Corps into pickleball.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

You are just the perfect combination of every sport to be an amazing pickleball player. I mean, the tennis gives you the positioning on the court and working with the racket, and then the poker gives you the strategic mind that we all know we need a lot of strategy for pickleball, and then the table tennis for the fast hands. You just have the perfect combination. I

SPEAKER_00 3:35

think you're probably overflattering me, but I appreciate that. And no doubt, the range of activities that I've done in my life has kind of coalesced, I think, in pickleball. It's really, really helped. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

And even your anthropology background. So say a little bit more about your fascination with anthropology.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Oh, I fell in love with anthropology kind of later. I mean, I didn't even I didn't take a single class in college, but going into the Peace Corps, that's that's such a anthropological experience. I kind of fell into it and realized that that was the right thing for me. There was actually a class I took in high school that led me to the Peace Corps that was about the history of the Baltic region randomly. And so I liked how the idea of... studying something where the people seem to be in between. In that case, they're in between Germany and they're in between Russia and throughout history. And so I wanted to go to kind of another marginal area of the world, I thought. And so then Peace Corps was perfect. I figured out that there are no marginal areas in the world and it's actually great to look from the outside in. And then I guess now I'm in a sport that's similar like that, where it's kind of new and on the margins at first, but now it's central to so many of our lives.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Fascinating. And I imagine that as an anthropologist and as a poker player, you're really good at reading people. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I mean, sure. I get a good read. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially from like body language and those types of things. Yeah.

UNKNOWN 5:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

In tennis, actually, it's funny. I had to do a lot more of that. I had to be very cerebral. I was a little small. I'm still short, even in pickleball. I'm probably the smallest player in MLP, either me or another player named Jaume.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

How tall are you?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

I'm 5'8". So I'm thinking of the

SPEAKER_02 5:37

males.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah, of the males. But anyway, in tennis, it was a bigger disadvantage because the court is so much bigger. And the equipment is just heavier and you have to be really strong to be able to whip the ball around. So I had to think of ways. I couldn't just, you know, overpower people. So I had to think of ways to sort of manufacture points. But in pickleball, actually, I can turn my brain off just a bit because now that reach disadvantage and the... the lightness of everything and the smallness of everything is within my capabilities. So I can just kind of try to bully if I need to.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

That's so fun. That's so fun. So tell us about your trajectory. So you were introduced to pickleball when you came back from the Peace Corps. And that was when?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah, so I came back from the Peace Corps in 2018. I did a lot of traveling as well. So I got settled again at about 2019 in Tacoma. And then my friend, yeah, my friend, um, Zach, one of my best friends, he called me up and, uh, was like, yo, meet me at the, uh, 24 hour fitness, you know, um, to play with a group I've been playing with and I'll introduce you to the sport. And I was like, sure, why not? Um, and, uh, and then I showed up and, uh, I guess one, one of the first life lessons hit me immediately from pickleball and that in that meeting. Um, uh, one of, uh, of the players that he plays with one of his very good friends his name is glenn peterson who you guys might know uh he's in the area anyway he invented the swift net the one of the portable nets um he's just a all-time pickleball guy a great great human being anyway he's

Pickleball Journey

SPEAKER_00 7:22

he's he was in his 60s when i first met him and um we were playing and I figured that I think just my youth and my very recent tennis experience that I would be able to sort of dominate the game after maybe an hour or so when I got things figured out. But I don't remember winning a game that whole day. And he specifically, there was one shot where we were all at the kitchen and my partner dinked cross court to him And he took the ball out of the air so he didn't let it bounce. And he did some sort of voodoo with a flick that came right at me. And I didn't even touch it. I think I squealed. And I felt really helpless. I was like, whoa, what was that? And so it was really interesting for me. It was very motivating. So I was thinking, wow, someone in their 60s can do this to me right now. There's something special here in this, in this sport, you know? So it was like, don't really judge a book by its cover. I guess would be the lesson. And I've, I've, I've come across that lesson a few times in other sports, especially in table tennis. That happens too. But this was the starkest, I think. And the structure of pickleball really leads to all different types of body styles and athleticisms and ages and male, female. It doesn't really matter. It really feels like anyone could really succeed and anyone could surprise you. I had to get over that helplessness, that feeling of helplessness and figure out why that was happening and learn more about the community.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Did you get a coach? I mean, did you get... When did you get serious

SPEAKER_00 9:09

about it? Ah, well, that didn't... So that was 2019 when I was talking about it. But I came in and out of the sport. I ended up getting back into it for my master's research at Illinois State. And that was in... I started that project in 2022. That's really when I got back into it. I was playing, you know, several days a week. But I didn't... Well, you're asking about a coach. That would be this year, really, really recently. Oh, for heaven's sake. Yeah, so... In March, I got asked to play with my current partner, Eric Lang. He's from Portland, and he's also a pro. He's on my team on the SoCal Hard 8s. He asked me to play with him in an APP event in Miami. Until that point, I had really just taken pickleball, not lightly, but I'd been playing very much for fun, playing mostly with all my local friends, not worried about results too much. Um, but then when he asked and it kind of was someone, I think the first time where I would be playing with someone, my level, um, I, I couldn't really pass it up and we went, we did really well, better than I expected. Um, and then that just the timing of that with the MLP draft was like a week later. Um, And so I ended up getting drafted kind of out of nowhere. It was a big surprise. And so then I had to make a decision about my life, whether to go to do my doctorate, because I got in about the same day as the draft.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Oh, my

SPEAKER_00 10:37

gosh. Yeah, so which I couldn't have imagined declining, you know, like even a month earlier. But I ended up thinking this was a sort of a, you know, singular opportunity. And so I went with it. And then... Knowing Eric, he had a really good community down in Portland led by my current coach now. I now have a coach, Travis Rude. I started going down to Vancouver. I still do it about... twice a week. I drive, it's a lot of driving. Um, but yeah, we go down to Travis's, um, sort of his dojo at his, it's at his, his, his property is three courts there. And he runs sort of a team practice, um, for, uh, sort of the higher level players in that area. Um, and that it's been game changing for me, um, to, to, to really take it seriously since April, like, uh, my, my game has improved. Um, I think, uh, he, Travis offers so many insights that like I hadn't thought of before. So, um, my mind has expanded in the game. And so anyway, that's been an absolute blessing and a reason why I think I'm doing as well as I am.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

That's

SPEAKER_00 11:48

very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Yeah. What are some of the improvements? What

SPEAKER_00 11:52

are the insights? Okay. Well, it's Travis. Well, so I don't know if anyone has seen me play, I'm, I'm, uh, hyper-aggressive and going back to what I said about my tennis days where I was sort of small and had to be really cerebral while I was sort of being bullied most of the time and I had to just sort of survive because everyone's like 6'4", hitting the ball so hard. So I almost have my alter ego come out in pickle where I'm hyper-aggressive as a player. I'm just sort of done with being bullied. I want to bully a little bit. That's probably the wrong word to use, but you know

SPEAKER_02 12:26

what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Yeah, just very aggressive. I take the attack to the other team very Very early. So Travis tells me when I, you know, when I first met him, I was doing that a lot and I still am, but he was saying, okay, you're sort of a bar fighter and I want to take you out of the bar and into the boxing ring, you know? So the biggest change that I, that he has done for me is finding ways to attack that always with, just direct speed, you know, direct power, being very creative with sort of off-speed attacks, still putting pressure on the other players, but doing things with a lot of bend instead of straight line. So, yeah, it's really changed the way I even hold the paddle like on attack, on speed up balls. I used to be kind of like a tennis player, kind of like to the side here, but now I hit it mostly down so that I can kind of... so that I can hold the ball maybe to the last second and they're not really sure where it's going. Yeah, and then also attacking and then playing on the next one or that's really the put away ball. It's not necessarily the first speed up, it's like a setup ball where we call it the one and then they hit is the two and then I'm on the three. Those are the numbers we use. So yeah, hitting ones to set up threes. Anyway, I know that's a lot of info there. That's

SPEAKER_03 13:48

good. I love the info.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

I love it. Yeah, yeah. So he's helped me a lot. Yeah, I'm not quite a boxer yet, but I'm definitely in the sparring. I'm sparring.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah, you're halfway out of the

SPEAKER_02 14:00

box. Yes, I'm halfway out of the box. One foot in, one foot out. That's cool.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

So you have a fascinating nickname.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

Ah.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Purple Jesus. Yes. Right, yeah. So how in the world did that nickname come about?

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yeah, funny you ask. So that was a college nickname. Oh. Yeah, near the end of my college years. I went to the University of Washington, and I played tennis there, so Washington's purple. And because I played, they gave me so much gear. It was just an overwhelming amount of gear. So I was wearing purple all the time, even not when I was playing. It became my favorite color. A few years after, I actually had hair. This is long now, but I had hair down to my butt, basically. Oh,

SPEAKER_02 14:47

my

SPEAKER_00 14:47

gosh. Yeah, really long. That was Peace Corps days. I actually kind of looked a little bit like what you might think Jesus looked like.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Uh-huh, uh-huh, what the artists have rendered.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Right. And then my favorite movie is The Big Lebowski. So there's a character in there that's sort of their rival. They're on a bowling team, and the rival bowling guy is John Turturro is the actor, and he's wearing all purple, and his name is Jesus. He's the purple Jesus, and he's my favorite character. Anyway, so these three things sort of coalesced into my nickname. But then in Pickleball – Before you guys started, I think, there was an old tournament website. If you wanted to register, it was called pickleballtournaments.com. And in that website, if you wanted to register for a tournament, you had to have a profile. And in the profile, it had a space for nickname. So in the current website, Pickleball Brackets, which most people use, there isn't that. But in the old website, there was. And so when I first registered for a tournament, I wrote Purple Jesus here in this in this profile just is the last thing, last nickname I had. And I didn't think anyone would see it. It wasn't, well, what turns out that they don't tell you this, but if you wrote something, it would replace your name. There was no indicator of that. You know, I'm totally new. So I didn't. And so I show up to my first tournament and they're calling my, they call on the loudspeaker, like purple Jesus report. And I was shocked. And then of course, Everyone else was surprised, and they thought it was funny. Everyone's

SPEAKER_02 16:29

looking around, who the heck is Purple

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Team? Yeah, and people liked it, and I thought it was funny, and I didn't want to go change it. So it ended up sort of just sticking. And then when I switched to brackets, I just don't have a name anymore. I just write that as my real name because it's sort of become me. In Illinois, when I was doing my master's, a lot of players actually didn't know my real name. They would just call me usually PJ or purple or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yeah. And actually at first, now I embrace it.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

yeah it's kind of like how this all evolved for you even pickleball it just kind of organically evolved that's very cool

SPEAKER_01 17:06

yeah well and we're lucky that our life lessons logo is purple because you said okay i'll be on your podcast that was

SPEAKER_03 17:15

the first thing

SPEAKER_02 17:15

you noticed yeah and it's my favorite color so it's all good yeah uh so even on your book you are you have purple jesus identified

SPEAKER_00 17:26

yeah yeah i um well for A long time I thought if I ever published, I played with the idea in my mind of publishing anonymously. I'm very poor at self-promotion, so actually the nickname kind of helps with that. But yeah, I like the idea of published. I guess, I don't know, when I read a lot of science, I feel like sometimes there's a gap between the researcher and the reader, where they're this privileged group. person of knowledge, but I feel like a lot of science, it really, if you can do it, if you put your mind to it, it could be anyone, you know? Um, so I kind of liked idea of maybe publishing anonymously. Um, and then I also am a huge fan of music and like, especially hip hop, um, and, uh, you know, stage

SPEAKER_02 18:14

names.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Iron Maiden.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Iron Maiden is my all time favorite band. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Um, but that just the idea of stage names, I think, uh, interest me. I think they're fun. I think actually like academics could benefit from a little more flair, a little more personality like that. So anyway, yeah, I just decided that since I am Purple Jesus or PJ in Pickleball, the book's about Pickleball. Yeah, that's my author name.

UNKNOWN 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

And Jesus is a very common name.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Jesus, yes, and I speak Spanish, so...

SPEAKER_02 18:53

I don't know how you say purple in Spanish.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

There are actually two words, depending on which area of the world you're in. Oh!

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Do you know how to say

SPEAKER_00 19:01

it? Yeah, morado would be in most of the world, or it would be purpura. But... Since

SPEAKER_02 19:10

you speak four languages, you were able to answer that. What are your four languages, just as an aside?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Oh, well, Indonesian. Language is a big hobby of mine. I actually do it on the side just because I'm interested in it. Yeah, I do a lot of Duolingo. But yeah, Indonesian I had to learn because I was living there. I also learned a second language, a local tribal language called Sundanese.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Oh,

SPEAKER_00 19:36

okay. that everyone was speaking. So they would only use Indonesian in formal context. So when we were just hanging out, having fun, I suddenly didn't know what people were saying. So I had to learn that. And then I learned Spanish. I did a lot of traveling right after college, my undergrad. I traveled through South America, been to Peru a bunch of times. I was in Mexico, Uruguay, Bolivia. So I learned just traveling. I took it in high school. And then I ended up getting a job during COVID working with – I was a social worker with undocumented boys from Central

SPEAKER_03 20:14

America.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah, and so they only really spoke Spanish. So I had to speak Spanish all day for that job. So anyway, those are the four main ones. But I've also studied French. I did the full program on – Wow. Wow. That is so

SPEAKER_02 20:49

brilliant. Oh, my gosh. I can't even imagine just learning languages for fun, but good for you. Back to your book. So tell us about A Pickleball Gospel.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Yeah. So first of all, it started as my master's thesis at Illinois State. Oh, I see. Yeah. I wanted to do my PhD when I ended up doing a master's. My original thought was to go to Indonesia and study badminton. Uh, but then masters, it's a little less feasible to get funding for that kind of thing. So I stayed local and, uh, and pickleball was just blowing up. I mean, um, that was

Pickleball

SPEAKER_00 21:27

actually, I probably started researching right when you guys started. It sounds like the timeline, um,

SPEAKER_02 21:32

year ago, March or so.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Uh, well like last year. Right. And yeah. Right. Um, so a few months before that, but, um, but yeah, I mean, it was exploding all over the U S and with my racket experience, um, And it's really fun, right? So like, why not? Like, why not have fun while you're researching? Yeah, so I put all those skills together. And that was my thesis. And then my advisor, James Stanlaw, he advised me to adapt it because just because it's topical. And I guess he thought it was quality enough, you know, for publishing. So yeah. So yeah, with his encouragement, I decided to sort of change some of the language and move things around, make it more accessible to a public audience. And then that's taken several months. I'm working with a publisher, both of whom I was connected by a pickleball. Sorry, I was connected to them. This is Made for Success Publishing. I was connected to them by a pickleball player. And the two people that I'm most in contact with are pickleball enthusiasts. So it was a great match. Yeah, Brian and Alice. So it's been fun because they actually have a pickleball court at their company headquarters. And we've played. So it's really been just, again, like a serendipitous project that has evolved and the right people have come in at the right time. Um, and, um, yeah, so now it's, it's, it's coming out on, uh, October 8th, I believe is when it's, it's right. It's on Amazon right now. Um, so by

SPEAKER_02 23:06

the time this airs, it will definitely be out and about so people can go right to it and we'll include a link, uh, to your book in the text about this episode so people can find you, but also it's a pickleball gospel.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

I have my copy pre-ordered already. Oh, no way. Wow. Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah. Tell us a little about it, just a quick synopsis.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Yeah. Well, it started as an academic project. And in anthropology, we do ethnographies usually, which is, it's basically, well, first to start, just because not everyone knows what anthropology is. I was a sociology undergrad. And in sociology, we tend to look at big data, big observations. Sort of what I would say is look at the beach. And then you try to say something about that from the beach, about the grain of sand. So you sort of go up to down, usually. Anthropology is sort of the inverse of that, where someone will spend a lot of time in a small place. a community or a subgroup. Um, so you kind of look at the grain of sand and then after that you try to say something about the beach. Um, so, so it's an ethnography where I spent a lot of time, about eight months. Um, I mean, I've been in the community for a long, longer than that, but my actual research period was about eight months being in all spaces where pickleball was played, uh, in, uh, mostly in Illinois and in Washington, um, and a few other places. Um, And so then what I try to do is represent that experience in a way that's authentic. And then also try to present the pickleball community from an insider perspective. So, like readers who don't know anything about pickleball can really hopefully get a very good understanding of what pickleball is all about.

UNKNOWN 25:06

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Just because I'm sort of an insider outsider. And so, yeah. And then finally, I'm also trying to argue something. So that's the about the beach part, you know. Yeah. So extrapolating out from my experience and saying something deeper. And for me, well, I mean, I looked at pickleball and I kind of identify four main pillars of it. The first one is that it is competitive. It is a sport. And the competitive part, you know, I really enjoy and I find that most people do as well. But it isn't the only thing. And it's three other pillars, I would say, are, I mean, anyone who spends time in pickleball for, even a few minutes can can see how social it is right how the community is so strong um so so yeah that's the the another major pillar and then part the reason why it's so strong too is that i think pickleball is um playful uh there's an element i mean you know at the end of the day it's it's it's a plastic wiffle ball you know we have paddles we're all adults but we're we're playing like children, sort of. Right. Yeah, it brings us back, right, to when times were simpler and we were just having fun with life. So, so wait, what are they saying? Oh, so right, so it's competitive, but it's also a community. It's also, it's also playful. And so anyway, the, these things kind of, they seem opposite, but but I find that there's a real unity in them. And so I find that there's a lot of cooperative elements in pickleball with what I was saying. Oh, my fault. I skipped one fun. Sorry. The fourth pillar is fun. And I know that seems silly to identify because I mean, sports are supposed to be fun, but yeah, People have commented on pickleball's fun factor more than any sport I've ever been a part of. I actually say it's fun-dicting. It's a little bit like you can't almost stop because it's so much fun. The amount of times that I've heard people say at the end of a practice session or a fun session, let's play one more. You want to do one more? And then like... That happens like six more times. You know, you'll finish one more and then, no, let's go again. You know, sure enough, you're there like an hour later than you want it to be. Yeah. So it's almost like you can't stop because it's that much fun. And it's kind of like being a gambler almost at a roulette wheel where you just can't step away. But it's more healthy than that. But anyway, so, yeah, sorry. It's competitive, but it's playful. It's fun. It's such a strong community. And so you have the competitive side and you have this sort of cooperative side, too, where you're connecting with other people. human beings. Um, and so what I say in my book is I combine those, those two words and I talk a lot about coopetition. Oh, I like that. Competition, cooperation, coopetition.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Um,

SPEAKER_00 28:24

and I talk about coopetition as I think, uh, being a function of really all sports. Um, it just, it's just that, uh, it seems to really stand out in pickleball. Um,

SPEAKER_01 28:36

It's interesting as you're talking, when Cher and I were developing our podcast, we came up with three pillars. Ours were joy, community, and empowerment. And as you're talking, I see that your coopetition is our empowerment. Because it's that competitive cooperation that is very empowering.

UNKNOWN 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Perfect. Right. Oh yeah. So that is really cool.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

I love it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I certainly feel empowered by pickleball in that way because I, it's changed the way I've looked at sports. I've realized that there's such a mutual dependence on each other. And this, this will go in ways that maybe aren't obvious.

The Concept of Coopetition in Sports

SPEAKER_00 29:23

I mean, of course you have your teammates, so you're dependent on them like other sports or you're, you, you know, a lot of people play pickleball for the social benefits, right? Not even, you know, maybe not a competitive like tournament player. So you depend on others just for that connection and that community and, or to get enjoyment out of your life. There's so many things right where you need others for it. But also I even, I even think the opponent themselves, like in a very competitive setting, I feel as though we all want to play our best.

UNKNOWN 29:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

And we imagine that that's sort of something within us. And I agree, of course, it's within you because who else could it be within? But I really don't feel like our best is something that we can do alone. I mean, I don't think I could just bring it out of myself. It absolutely requires someone else to be on that other side to sort of

SPEAKER_03 30:19

extract it.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

And if both of us are doing that, Um, it also means that we are of sort of some sort of a equal, um, uh, there's an equality of, of play. I mean, if you can't, if you have an opponent who's much lower and much higher, this, this sort of breaks down, but, um, finding someone that's of, of, of equal level to you and that, so that you're both extracting the best out of each other. Um, it, it then creates like a, a moment that's bigger than both of you. And, and, and by doing that, both of you, uh, gain. Anyway, so I've really shifted to sort of seeing sports as moments, not to win, but like to create together and grow together in ways that I guess maybe I wasn't mature enough to see before.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

That's the coopetition. I love that word. Have you coined it? I mean, have you

SPEAKER_00 31:18

trademarked it? I didn't coin it. It's actually a concept. It's a concept in business since about 1996. There have been cooperative studies, but it's almost strictly in business. And it usually talks about how maybe you have a competing corporation, but then you both have a third party who supplies the two of you. There are times when you actually want to cooperate with your competitor vis-a-vis this third party so that both of you are benefiting. Anyway, that's kind of how it started in business. It's really exploded in that field in the last maybe 10 years, studies of that. And then I had a friend, actually someone who's in the book who I interview. I interview, there's 13 individuals who I did tons of interviews with and all of their opinions are scattered throughout the book. But he actually, in our interview, brought this word up because I was explaining to him, like, I have this idea about these competing... uh, forces, but that are really part of one unity, um, this, this cooperation and this, this competition, but I'm not sure how to express it. I don't really have the right wording. And he's like, Oh yeah, it sounds like coopetition. And I was like,

SPEAKER_01 32:36

I've

SPEAKER_00 32:37

never heard that word before. And I never thought to put those together. Like, wow. Like we're, you know, and so I actually, I, in a footnote, I give him credit because without, without that like moment of Eureka, um, The book would have been very different and I think lesser for it. And actually academics talk about how, you know, when we do research, like, again, it isn't just like someone like myself knowing stuff. It's like a, it's a process where you learn directly with who you're researching or who you're researching with and it's a becoming, you know. Um, so, so yeah, hopefully my book reflects that becoming where I, you know, I, I learned things along the way and just, you know, hope to share them with others, but, um, but yeah, coopetition. Um, I do feel as though, uh, it's the first application, maybe formally, um, in sport, although others have talked about it as well. I know that in my book, I write about a guy named Daryl Waltrip. He's a NASCAR champion, um, who is, been on record talking about coopetition in his, in his sport. Um, a lot of time when, when you're, um, I think like in, in racing where you draft behind someone else,

SPEAKER_02 33:48

uh,

SPEAKER_00 33:49

this could be in bike racing or motor car racing, uh, you're, you're in a way you're, you are cooperating with your, with your competitors. And so I think that's where it came from, you know, from that end. Um, but yeah, this is, I'm not saying it's, so I didn't invent the term. Um, I wasn't the first to study it in academic setting. Um, um, or the first to use it in sport, but maybe one of the first formal applications of it in, um, in a non-business setting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. And it's, uh, how does that, would you say apply in a life lesson perspective, coopetition?

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Oh, uh, mutual dependence. Like I think I said that earlier. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's cliche to say we're the whole, the world's interconnected. We're all, we're all connected. Um, And, you know, I, I believe that, uh, we're all even the same material. We're all from Stardust and, you know, those kinds of things. Um, but no, yeah. The fact that, um, your, your improvement as a player, um, uh, your, your fulfillment and satisfaction that you get from the sport is all so, so dependent on the other, on your opponent and on, on your teammates and who you're with. Um, Yeah, I mean, it's sort of proven to me that we're not alone in this world. And anything we think we do alone, like even saying like, I won a tournament, like seems false at a very basic level. Because, you know, like, there's no way I could have done that without myriad of efforts that were put into me almost like in some sort of metaphysical way. by my coaches, by my other fellow training partners, by my opponents, in the best matches I was ever a part of. I don't know. I'm sort of a depository of all those efforts and energy. So to even say I won anything, it seems sort of disingenuous, even though, of course, I had to put effort in and there's hard work and all that stuff. I'm not trying to negate that.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Right,

SPEAKER_00 35:51

right. Yeah, we're interconnected, independent of each other.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Big time. So true. On and off the court. Yeah. One of the things I like, before tournaments, when it's just for play, typically we switch off our partners. So of the four of us, sometimes we're opponents and sometimes we're partners. And so that also breaks down the barriers when we're playing with other people. It's like, okay, you were my opponent a minute ago. Now you're my partner. I'm really glad you have that shot that you put against me last time.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Right. You can all grow together. Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah, exactly. We all grow. Now we say we won the tournament. We don't say I won.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Hey, that's great. That's great. I like that. And so you have two others. Is it four of you that are you referring to specifically or?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

No, just in general. Yeah, we have a huge pickleball community that we are a part of. And yeah, socially and on the court. And yeah,

SPEAKER_00 36:51

so you're having a lot of people are making this like this mental grammatical switch where they're talking about we and No,

SPEAKER_02 36:59

I'm just suggesting that. I thought your point was really good. You made a really good point. It's like, yeah, we don't do anything just us. It's always with other people with the wind at our back, if nothing more. So I love that idea.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Cheers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Yeah.

UNKNOWN 37:16

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Well, my gosh, we could talk with you for hours. But we do want to just reiterate that you've written this book called A Pickleball Gospel, and it will be available by the time this airs. And we hope that everybody gets their copy. We will, for sure. And we're going to be really enjoying watching your continued professional work. with Pickleball.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

All right.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

And thank you for bringing heart to it, which is such a big part of Pickleball anyway, but just who you are, Max. Purple Jesus, PJ. Yeah, it's really lovely. It's been really lovely talking with you today and having your heart expressed in such lovely ways. And the fact that you learn language just for fun and then you're able to communicate with all these people from all over the world, that's inspiring too.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Much love.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

Well, thank you so much for being here today. And we want to thank everybody else. Thank you so much for being a part of this show. Get that book. Follow Max. Purple Jesus. And we look forward to our conversation next week. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Cheers, y'all.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

If you love our podcast, we'd be so grateful if you'd take a few seconds to follow or subscribe to Life Lessons from Pickleball. This ensures you'll never miss an episode and helps us continue these wonderful conversations.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

On Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen, go to the show page and tap the follow button in the top right corner. And on YouTube, click the subscribe button under any of the episodes. Thanks so much. Hope to see you on the court.

UNKNOWN 38:58

you